HUD and Mouse Control for cockpit manipulations

[patrick]

I just wanted to ask you about some ideas I had recently concerning the HUD and the cockpit (which somehow are both the same or at least related to each other).

Motivation
I don't like the controls of the old vertical scrollers, because sometimes it is very difficult to understand which keys are used for which weapons/weapon change/systems.
On the other side I do not like the the idea that one hand is controlling the space ship (arrow-keys or w-a-s-d-keys) and the other hand is just pushing the shoot key.

Idea
To come around this problem, I thought about a WoW-style (World of Warcraft) control (related to the fps games genre):
one hand is on the w-a-s-d-keys (as usual for fps games) and controls the movement of the spaceship completely. The other hand is on the mouse, left mouse button (LMB) would be the fire button (nothing different, but the LMB is used to fire).
Additionally:
With the mouse, the player can control an in-game menu on the screen to select different weapon systems, select different weapon modes and perhaps do also the system energy balancing.
This could look like the WoW GUI:



Focus on points 22, 8 (the points on the bottom of the image).

At this point I want to apologise for using pictures of WoW to illustrate Orxonox gaming topics, but Blizzard does (as they always do) have a very good understanding about how a GUI must look like to be comfortable.

This GUI would also bring some additional benefits: it would make the game much simpler, therefore making it more playable for a bigger audience.

One could also think about using the mouse movement to look around the spaceship a bit (looking backwards, forwards, etc) the view will always automaticaly return to the normal vertical scroller state. This would also enable the player to look at the ship closely and from different directions (what someone would probably like, if he/she upgrades a ship with cool weapons )

What do you think about it?

[Marc]

I generally like this idea, because this is to some point similar to how Nanostray on Nintendo DS works (with touch to change weapon etc).

The main problem I am seeing is the "interaction" with the HUD:

If LMB (and most likely RMB) are used to fire, how should the interaction actually be done?
One way would be the deactivation of the "action map" when the mouse gets over the HUD, but I'm not sure if impulsive players wouldn't move the mouse by accident over the HUD and die due to that.

But generally, such an interaction would be a quite interesting idea and user friendly idea.
Not all vertical scroller players are freaks (ok most are, because that's needed to finish these games normally ^^)

[beni]

I agree with patrick when he says that only controlling and shooting (using 1 or 2 keys) is not really an innovative style of playing.
The problem I see with the mouse is, that one wants to use the mouse for aiming, which shouldn't work (or should it?). That's probably a bit problematic.
Also the problem with changing stuff in the HUD while shooting. This is impossible as far as I see it.
It's okay to use WoW to show what kind of gameplay you talk about, but WoW is a lot more quiet and uses less reaction than a vertical scroller.
I like the idea, but the player will be irritated when mouse movement won't do anything and clicking in the HUD will make the ship stop shooting.

We could try and control the HUD with rightclicks and shooting will still be left clicking. But when we aim with the mouse, that's not helping anymore.

[hofzge]

I don't quite agree with all of you and think that this idea, although it looks great at first glance, is not very practical. Some of the reasons have already been mentioned (LMB, RMB and changing between game and menu), but I look at it from another point.

If Orxonox is to stand on the big market of games, then it has to obey to some rules: Most Shoot-em-ups and vertical scrollers have w-a-s-d or arrow controls for movement (nothing new here), but they also have a rather clearly defined set of other buttons. Most japano vertical scrollers use a y-x-c or z-x-c (on English keyboards) fire control layout. Other than Raiden there are few good games, which don't obey these rules and if we want to win a community, we have to somehow also adapt to rules, which have been around for 15 or so years. I know that this is a very conservative view and that without change there can be no great ideas, but first there should always be something which works and which works fine before getting into revolutionary changes, which might backfire.

[Marc]

More modern casual gamer vertical scrollers actually don't waste any keyboards anymore (they support it, but the mouse is normally what's mentioned as main control option).
PC users have a mouse with 2 buttons. What's needed more to move a ship left and right, back and front and fire 2 weapons?
At worst they need the space button in addition for "super bombs" or something similar.

The only drawback one could add is the sensitivity of mice ... but I don't think this will be too much of a problem as Orxonox is, from what I heard, not targeted at vertical scroller hardcore players.

[patrick]

Thanks for all the replies. You picked out some good points:

If LMB (and most likely RMB) are used to fire, how should the interaction actually be done?

This is a good point! And your suggestions to this problems could solve the problem to some point. The suggestion from beni:

We could try and control the HUD with rightclicks and shooting will still be left clicking

would be a solution but will feel wrong, because people need to click on buttons with the RMB

The problem I see with the mouse is, that one wants to use the mouse for aiming

Yes this could definitly lead to some misunderstandings. We would have to test it out. I didn't think about aiming with the mouse actualy. If someone wants to write about it, you are welcome to start a new thread.

I understand what you mean hofzge with:

If Orxonox is to stand on the big market of games, then it has to obey to some rules... ...Most japano vertical scrollers use a y-x-c or z-x-c.

But we are not trying to build a clone of another game nor do we want to be reduced to a vertical scroller only! Orxonox wants to be different, we create a game that should make fun primarily. Our creativity musn't be restricted because some people 10 years ago decided to do it their style (eg. the y-x-c fire control). We should take them as an example and define our own style, as they did it back then.
If Orxonox wants to revolutionize the vertical-scroller genre, it must be different!

but first there should always be something which works and which works fine before getting into revolutionary changes

You are right! But since we do already have such a "normal-control" we can now play around a little bit with these controls...
I know that you want to remind us to not think about too much different ideas and at the end not finishing one... But in this case it's not a problem.


The problem with the different mouse buttons is serious, I must confess .
But if we get around it, we have lots of advantages, like instant weapons/attacks that we can activate at any point in the game without getting distracted by complicalted key-settings just through the cockpit. So more suggestions are welcome

[hofzge]

Wow... finally a thread with a lot of good ideas and a hot discussion!

To sum it up: It seems to me that everybody besides me thinks of the mouse as the best way to steer the game. I agree the keyboard control may seem a little bit "old skool" and that mouse has all in one, but I still feel that mouse is less precise, especially if the buttons are also used and that is the main criticism I have.
Normally mice are used in games, where control on a 2D plane is needed (FPS), but w-a-s-d is used for movement. I must urge all who think that mouse is the best way to control a spaceship to just once play Quake 4 or some other modern age shooter with mouse movement control.
To me this style of controlling is very confusing.

More modern casual gamer vertical scrollers actually don't waste any keyboards anymore

I am not so up to date, but if you could mention a few I would be happy to try them out and see that mouse control is a viable alternative.

If Orxonox wants to revolutionize the vertical-scroller genre, it must be different!

That is not true! I would much rather say:
If Orxonox wants to revolutionize the vertical-scroller genre, it must do everything right!
This does not mean to reinvent the wheel in a field like the controls, which are so essential to the game (especially as Marc said that modern games are play with mice anyways).

[nicolasc]

PROFILES
I can't say it enough... just use a couple of profiles: One keyboard only (for the old school ones), one mouse only (for the nowadays gamers), and one hybrid one (take the best of both worlds)
...and don't forget the joystick support

the hybrid model is my favorite: Use the keyboard to move the ship around the screen and the mouse to aim (and shoot).

It can't be that difficult to create a profile... just hack an xml-file / conf-file and you're done and they consume almost no space!

cheers
nico

[bensch]

Some time ago we discussed the idea of a push-to-HUD mode, meaning: Normally you just have w-a-s-d and the mouse, but if you push with the RMB onto the spaceship, a HUD is displayed, to setup the spaceship configuration.

The problem with the approach is, that it is a bad thing to have a high speed-action-shooter game delayed because of a GUI interaction.

That is why one could speed it up using the "Maya" or "Black and White" apprach, where the actions are executed through gestures, for which the mouse (and maybe also a gamepad) is perfect.

Maya style: Push RMB on ship: HUD pops up in .5 seconds showing the options that can be executed in eight directions from the mousecursor out.
right could be Missiles, up could be Shields and so forth.
The nice thing is, that if the user is fast enough, the GUI does not pop up at all, but the action is executed as fast as the user handles the mouse.

The same could happen, by pushing on a huge enemy and then dragging the mouse for an attack type.

The other good thing about this kind of option-overlay is, that it is compatible with a gamepad, where a standard GUI is certainly not.
I think, that the Orxonox gamestyle dictates the possibility to play with gamepad, and so there should be no elements, that prohibit this.

[hofzge]

Thanks to both nico and bensch for their good ideas.

I can't say it enough... just use a couple of profiles: One keyboard only (for the old school ones), one mouse only (for the nowadays gamers), and one hybrid one (take the best of both worlds)

This would remove all problems simple, yet efficient ... Thanks!

Maya style: Push RMB on ship: HUD pops up in .5 seconds showing the options that can be executed in eight directions from the mousecursor out.

I really like the Maya style menu, as it doesn't have to pop up and hinder the gameplay. also it is as you said compatible with a gamepad.
Being the "old skool" type I am still thinking about how to do this or something similar on a keyboard. It wouldn't be nice to have 24 keys assigned just to play the game...

[beni]

I like the idea of the pop up menu.
If you've played the new Battlefield, you'd know that commands are given with exactly the same thing. I'm not sure, but I think this works well.
I'm not so sure, if it would be great in a vertical scroller, but I still think it's worth a try.

[nicolasc]

As I mentioned before, I am a fan of the keyboard-mouse combination.

I would use the mouse for targeting and shooting, the keyboard for everything else (movement, weapon selection..)

• Keyboard:
  • w-a-s-d: movement
  • q-e: rolling
  • r-f: afterburner, resp. retrorockets
  • 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-0---=: 12 primary weapon slot (de)activations (1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-0-'-^ for swiss kbd)
• Mouse:
  • LMB: fire primary
  • RMB: fire secondary (alternatively Space)
  • MMB: select target (alternatively RMB)
  • wheel: secondary weapons selection (alternatively Tab)

As for the HUD:

• Lower Center: Radar (if we get one..)
• Lower Center Left: 2 bars
  • primary weapon energy
  • engine power (afterburner, retrorockets)
• Lower Center Right: 2 bars
  • armor (life) combined with shield energy (i.e upper third for shield)
  • electronic state
  keep the ones you want to drop, away from those you don't want to
• Lower Left Corner: ship mesh with primary weapons slots (used ones in orange, active ones in white), ammo indicator for weapons with limited ammo (gauss-gun, vulcan...) (not yet implemented)
• Lower Right Corner: secondary weapon indicator (type, ammo)
• Top Center (80% width): Healthbar for level bosses
• Top Left Corner: Comm window
• Top Right Corner: Camera follows missile or shows target

This is how I think the HUD should look like.

cheers
nico

[Marc]

The HUD setup sounds good.
It especially is easy to understand (not too much text bla) and doesn't use too much room which is needed for the real action.
I like as well the idea of a "splitting element" in the middle to make the information more accessible.

[patrick]

This is how I think the HUD should look like.

I like this idea. Is there a possibility, that you make some simple drawings of this HUD so everyone can imagine what you mean with this HUD (text alone is hard to imagine).
It doesn't need to look good; just to show off, what you mean

[nicolasc]

yeah, yeah...

looks awful, but I hope this give you a better idea

Camera and Comm disappear automatically, if they are not used; The weapons windows could be retracted manually

cheers
nico