New multiplayer and weapon idea

[beni]

Hi guys
I was thinking about a new multiplayer mode for the Orxonox multiplayer. It's called the slicer .

Slicer multiplayer mode:
Imagine two guys cutting a big tree with a saw. One holds one end and the other holds the other hand of the saw. Then they cut the trunk of the huge tree and the tree falls.
This is in fact my idea for a multiplayer mode. It involves two attackers and some protectors. Depending if we have something like assault (where the teams change from attacker to defender after some time) or something with bases, we also need defenders in a team.
The attackers have to search for two items in the level. They build the slicer. One item is similar to a gun, the other one is just some ball or sphere. The guy with the gun part has to shoot at the guy with the ball. Then the slicer will span between them. The attackers are defenseless when they carry the slicer parts, but they can drop them temporarily and pick them up later.
While the slicer is built up, the attackers should not drop the slicer or lose sight of each other. If the do, the slicer will be teared down. The slicer has a limited length. It can't be stretched too much. The color of the slicer will show the attackers if they have to move closer to each other.
Now with this slicer the attackers will have to destroy the target. We will have to think about what this could be, because a tree might not be so logical, but we'll find something, I'm sure. Anyways: Destroying will be easy. Just run with the slicer through the target. Of course this will take some time. The attackers can accelerate the process when the push the slicer against the target. But then the slicer will get weaker and the attackers have to stand closer to each other. The target will be at a place where there is not much to hide. So the attackers have to expose themselves when they want to cut the target faster.
Defenders will have to shoot one of the attackers to tear down the slicer. We could either use one slicer per level or a certain slicer per target.

Hope you got the concept and I look forward to hear from your opinions. I also don't think it's too complicated. It's just the slicer whose functions have to be learned.

Then I have the idea of a new tracer weapon:

Tracer weapon: The tracer weapon has a secondary fire mode where you can target a player in your view. Once your player has become the target of the tracer gun (just click where the player is with your right mouse button) he will be hit by your shots wherever he runs to. Of course this will be limited to only 5 or 10 seconds. Your shots will follow him around corners, into shafts and behind crates. There are two possibilities for the target to get away: run behind a door and close it. The shots will follow the way the player took and when there is a closed door, it's the end of their journey. Also the target can run far enough so the tracer gun won't be able to trace him anymore.
Imagine you get shot by this gun and then jump down a few shafts to put a great distance between you and you're enemy. The tracer gun will not work on great distances. Also imagine you standing on top of some house and your enemy tries to shoot you from far away. The tracer gun will not be able to trace your movements. Of course the enemy could shoot you with a sniper, but not with the tracer gun.
Of course the tracer guns first fire mode are normal shots which will fly straight if there is no target defined beforehand

Hope everything is explained good enough for you to understand.
I know at the present state those implementation are not possible, but let's keep those ideas until we can.

[bensch]

I like the idea of the Slicer Multiplayer mode very much, as it is scaleable . Meaning even if we'd like the slicer to be operated by 3 persons at a time that have to generate a cutting triangle (and so on) it would be a lot of fun.
Sounds a little bit like "Herr des Huegels" of N64 James Bond with a lot more cool action.

The Tracer gun seems a little bit unfair, and also I am not sure if it is clear to the attacked that he is traced. And closing dors while being traced is heavy as well. Thats probably the reason why all other games create stupid tracers that just fly into the direction of the player regardless if a wall is in the middle -> mindless tracer.
But we could call this weapon Dog Nose Tracer

[beni]

Now that I think about it, it really has similarities to "King of the Hill"-mode. It is scalable in many ways. As you said we could change the number of slicer parts. We could either have one slicer or several slicers in one level and we can scale the strength of the slicer and of course the question if one team is just attacking or has to defend the same time. Everything does either add complexity, need for more teamwork or game speed.

Yeah I thought about the unfairness. First I wanted every weapon to be able to follow the tracer gun's trace. That would have been really unfair. We should either make the tracer gun weak enough or add another flaw to the gun, to make it easier for the attacked player to get away.

[x3n]

Hm, I don't know if the slicer modus will be funny... If 2 people have to hold the slicer, the attacking team has a heavy disadvantage (-2 players). The gameplay will be: spawn, run to the slicer, hold it, die after 2 seconds, spawn, run...
If the defenders can move the slicer themselves, the attackers have no chance... and if the slicer can only be moved by the attackers, the gameplay will only consists in moving the slicer cm for cm towards the target (and don't forget the newbies in the attacking team, who move it in the wrong direction ^^).
Well, maybe this could be fun, but personally I don't think so. This needs some improvements. What about a throwable slicer, so the attackers can use it against the defenders? Or, better, give all attackers some kind of linking-gun which sets up the slicer between connected guns, so the attackers only have to reach the (heavily guarded) target and stay there linked for some time (10 seconds?).


And some comments about the tracing gun:
I personally know that in multiplayer matches the players hate it, when they get killed by chance or without remarkable skill of the killer. Every gun should shoot straight forward, so every hit is 100% skill.
Of course, a lucky "oh my grenade bounced 200000 times and hit you after 3 hours right in your face"-kill is more fun for the killer, but the victim will throw the game away.
The tracing gun could be handled by every poor newbie who plays the game for the first time, there is absolutely no skill in it.
Either the victim has to run like a fool and has only minor chances (no fun for the victim) or you make the projectiles really slow, but then the weapon will be useless.
This weapon could be really funny in singleplayer, but definitively NOT in multiplayer matches.

[nicolasc]

Interesting discussion about this tracer thingy...
Why do I have a dejavu... reminds me of halflife, and this almost useless weapon...
To powerful is the other problem...
and for a reasonable balance, we need a playable game first.

The slicer-mode sounds like an adaption of bombing-run in ut2004... only difference you need 2 parts, and the roles are fix. OTOH it might be fun on a 8vs8 map.

cheers
nico

[beni]

Okay I recalled some multiplayer matches from the past when I was a skilled school kid killing terrorists, monsters and mercenaries.

I see the problems with the tracer gun. Although in many games there are weapons which do not shoot just straight and aren't completely based on skill. Or the weapon could have been used for strange stuff with skill, but was then frustrating for the killed guy.
I recall the rocket launcher from the old UT (dunno if the thing is the same in the newer ones) where your rockets followed your enemy when you had your crosshair resting long enough on him.
Or in halflife deathmatch where skilled people were able to use this strange gun to shoot through walls or around corners. Really frustrating for a newbie when a corner doesn't count as cover.
In UT there is also the huge rocket.. what was it called again? Redeemer I think, which didn't required skill at all.
But I see your point x3n. Either the weapon is too powerful or l4m3. I don't remember that weapon nico talks about, though.

Nearly every slightly complex multiplayer mode suffers from newbies. Even capture the flag is a pain, when the guy who stole the flag suddenly stops running and instead gets some power up and get himself killed by falling down a cliff.
Even team deathmatch suffers from newbies who mistake their enemies as dots on the radar.
There are quite difficult modes in UT like the one where you have to span a line to the enemy base to destroy it.
Of course my variant has something from "King of the Hill", Bombing run, maybe assault and capture the flag. But all those modes are similar and they suffer from the same lacks, so with the right parameters adjusted and the right maps (and maybe enough players) I still think the game mode can be fun.

[nicolasc]

But I see your point x3n. Either the weapon is too powerful or l4m3. I don't remember that weapon nico talks about, though.

I meant that little bugger

I recall the rocket launcher from the old UT (dunno if the thing is the same in the newer ones) where your rockets followed your enemy when you had your crosshair resting long enough on him.

At least that required some skill (especially because it took ages for the missiles to get loaded).
What you are proposing is right-click mark, left-click fire-and-forget, next target... have a little look at bzflags-missile-launcher, and you will find some similarities. The game is fun, but it's based on one hit, one kill.
On the other hand, as a special weapon (redeemer, ionbeam (sry, i just know UT that well)) - one once usable for a definite kill - might be usable. And every weapon needs a drawback; let's say that the shooter has to stand still.

cheers
nico

[x3n]

@beni:
Yes, the rockets in UT have a tracing mode. But there are 3 important points:
- You have to aim for several seconds at the enemy to mark the player (in this time you could shoot 2-3 times with the sniper)
- The rockets are flying air-line and don't really follow the player (which would need something like waypoints)
- The enemy can dodge them with a single sidestep (or in the newer UT with a doublejump) and doesn't have to run

And yes, there are some "unskilled" weapons, like grenades and the redeemer. But in all "pro" modes they are disabled (for example redeemer -> rocket launcher) or weakened (only 1 spawngrenade in UT2003/4 instead of 4, less splashdamage of the flak, etc).

The thing with the newbies was just a sidemark, the important thing is, that it's really annoying when you die after a few seconds and you were only able to move the slicer 2-3 steps. The attackers have to run the whole match and are always dead, while the defenders have nothing to do than sitting there an shooting the incoming attackers.



@nico:
Yes, that bugger was really useless - I only used it 2 or 3 times and I had to shoot a whole bug-army to bring the enemy down

And yes, the slicer mode as beni proposed it would work with 8 players on each side, but a game mode should also be playable with 2 or 3 players in a team. Gameservers for 16+ players are expensive and need a big community.

[nicolasc]

And yes, the slicer mode as beni proposed it would work with 8 players on each side, but a game mode should also be playable with 2 or 3 players in a team. Gameservers for 16+ players are expensive and need a big community.

Fair enough... And once more, we need a playable game - if it's just deathmatch - before we can introduce such nice playmodes.

BTW: is there a wiki page for such - and even more wackier - ideas. I think we need to collect them in a centralized location - and no, the forum is not a good idea.

[patrick]

I like the discussion very much. Because I personally think that a cool multiplayer mode will attract many-many people. And when I say "cool multiplayer mode" I mean different from other multiplayer modes already available.
The slicer idea is cool but I understand the concerns of x3n very much.

These are things I enjoy very much in multiplayer games:
- scalable: it's fun on 1vs1 and 20vs20.
- it makes more fun when played with more people (community thing)
- different winning conditions (you can win by: killing all enemies, pushing some buttons, destroying some buildings, etc [e.g. counter strike, special ops])
- different characters (heavy big gun guy but slow, fast scout but light weapons only, rocket monster but slow shooting frequency, etc [e.g. team-fortress]). Actually like a strategy game [e.g. starcraft, warcraft] but as FPS
- dynamic game: losing ground/objects influences the game (you get better weapons if you have conquered more ground/scientists/etc [e.g. hl mod science & industry], you can build turrets [hl: team fortress]
- small, easy to grasp levels: levels that you don't spend much time walking to the actual activity zone. One is able to get the structure of the level very fast
- 3rd party elements: exposed buttons to push that call airstrikes, call in NPC creatures that rush the whole place, call in NPC reinforcements
- value your life: if you die you have to wait for a certain amount of time [e.g. WoW, counter-strike]
- team-play: get a bonus when playing in teams but don't make it a requirement. Let people find out themselfs, that playing in teams is better
- easy to learn and quick-start-able

These are all points I enjoy in mp games, but they don't all need to be present in one game