Gametype and XML parameters
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Gametype and XML parameters
Yesterday I discussed the Gametype configuration via level files.
And x3n suggested to use a new class that configures the gametype. It would be written in Level scope of the XML file.
But why not directly making the Gametype an XML class and configure it like that?
I think I see what x3n thought when exactly NOT doing this: A level should not have to modify a gametype, just tell which one to use.
Well, I don't think so ^^ Small modifications should be possible. The use of an additional "GametypeConfiguration" object is merely another way of expressing it.
Am I missing somthing important what the Gametype isn't XML configurable?
And x3n suggested to use a new class that configures the gametype. It would be written in Level scope of the XML file.
But why not directly making the Gametype an XML class and configure it like that?
I think I see what x3n thought when exactly NOT doing this: A level should not have to modify a gametype, just tell which one to use.
Well, I don't think so ^^ Small modifications should be possible. The use of an additional "GametypeConfiguration" object is merely another way of expressing it.
Am I missing somthing important what the Gametype isn't XML configurable?
http://www.xkcd.com/
A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language.
A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language.
Re: Gametype and XML parameters
As a matter of fact, I thought about this, too, yesterday when I was talking to Mathis (he's creating a level). I think it makes sense for gametypes to be (to some degree) configurable, e.g. Deathmatches can have different killcounts to be achieved before the game is over. It also makes sense to be able to do this in XML.
Re: Gametype and XML parameters
The actual question is always whether these parameters actually depend on the Level. And I think the ones we're talking about here really do. For instance the kill count may depend on the map layout or size or the availability of weapons and ammunition.
http://www.xkcd.com/
A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language.
A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language.
Re: Gametype and XML parameters
I'm not sure if it is that easy. I think you should be able to configure a Gametype separately, independent of the level (at least to some extend).
What I'm thinking about is a scenario like this: I start Orxonox, but it's already late and I don't want to play for very long. So I want to start a short multi-player game with bots. Now I don't know exactly how large and time consuming each map is, so I want to configure the number of bots, maybe the way points are counted and the maximum point count. Maybe I want to change friendly fire.
Those parameters shouldn't be all dependent on the level.
A compromise to this idea would be a solution where the level designer decides on a couple of pre-defined parameter sets. Those sets can then later be chosen by the user.
In the scenario I would choose my favorite level, but choose the parameter set with the lowest number of bots and minimal point count.
What I'm thinking about is a scenario like this: I start Orxonox, but it's already late and I don't want to play for very long. So I want to start a short multi-player game with bots. Now I don't know exactly how large and time consuming each map is, so I want to configure the number of bots, maybe the way points are counted and the maximum point count. Maybe I want to change friendly fire.
Those parameters shouldn't be all dependent on the level.
A compromise to this idea would be a solution where the level designer decides on a couple of pre-defined parameter sets. Those sets can then later be chosen by the user.
In the scenario I would choose my favorite level, but choose the parameter set with the lowest number of bots and minimal point count.
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Re: Gametype and XML parameters
That's excactly how I see it.
There is already a stub to configure the gametype in the menu, but not yet implemented.
I'm merely thinking about parameters like "startAction" and "participationAllowed".
There is already a stub to configure the gametype in the menu, but not yet implemented.
I'm merely thinking about parameters like "startAction" and "participationAllowed".
http://www.xkcd.com/
A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language.
A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language.
Re: Gametype and XML parameters
I think one could also think of some of the parameters as mere suggestions of the level designer, while the user has a higher priority and his settings override those set in the level file.
Re: Gametype and XML parameters
yeah i know, this point is being discussed for over a year now.
here's my point of view:
first lets see how you start a level:
menu -> singleplayer -> chose gametype -> chose level -> configure settings (max time, max score, number of bots, mutators, friendly fire, extra pickups, bot strength, etc) -> start!
so all settings which can be controlled from the menu shouldn't be predefined in the level.
also think about what a "level" really is: it's just a location, a bunch of models and a skybox, a collection of items and objects. think about a level called "zurich" with the gametype "real life" - do you really want all settings of your game to be predefined by the location where you play it? surely not.
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on the other hand i see the need for suitable default values (remember: the gametype in a level is only a default, we could change it, but most levels are specifically designed for one gametype, so it makes sense to set a recommended gametype in the level). those default values are useful if you start a game without menu - for example if there's a minigame within a level, you want it to be perfectly configured (including all settings which are usually configured in a menu).
but you probably notice the different term: before i was talking about "levels", now i mentioned a mini"game". there's a distinction between a level and a game. a level is just a generic location, while a game has strict rules.
so to end this post, i still don't see the need for predefined settings in a "level", but i see the need for a "game" class. this class would contain attributes for a) the level to load and b) all settings. so players could still chose a level from the menu and play it with their prefered settings, but on the other hand they could play a singleplayer campaign which is just a series of games, where all settings are already predefined by the developers.
here's my point of view:
first lets see how you start a level:
menu -> singleplayer -> chose gametype -> chose level -> configure settings (max time, max score, number of bots, mutators, friendly fire, extra pickups, bot strength, etc) -> start!
so all settings which can be controlled from the menu shouldn't be predefined in the level.
also think about what a "level" really is: it's just a location, a bunch of models and a skybox, a collection of items and objects. think about a level called "zurich" with the gametype "real life" - do you really want all settings of your game to be predefined by the location where you play it? surely not.
---
on the other hand i see the need for suitable default values (remember: the gametype in a level is only a default, we could change it, but most levels are specifically designed for one gametype, so it makes sense to set a recommended gametype in the level). those default values are useful if you start a game without menu - for example if there's a minigame within a level, you want it to be perfectly configured (including all settings which are usually configured in a menu).
but you probably notice the different term: before i was talking about "levels", now i mentioned a mini"game". there's a distinction between a level and a game. a level is just a generic location, while a game has strict rules.
so to end this post, i still don't see the need for predefined settings in a "level", but i see the need for a "game" class. this class would contain attributes for a) the level to load and b) all settings. so players could still chose a level from the menu and play it with their prefered settings, but on the other hand they could play a singleplayer campaign which is just a series of games, where all settings are already predefined by the developers.
Fabian 'x3n' Landau, Orxonox developer
Re: Gametype and XML parameters
So, we need another layer: Game. I wanted to combine it in Level, but so far it doesn't exactly make a lot of sense.
Actually, all I want to do is create a level/game that automatically starts the game, has a few bots playing in the background, doesn't display any messages (like kill message), has no score board and shows a menu or a video sequence upon starup. Also, no player should in any way be able to participate. ^^
Quite a few requirements I'd say.
Oh, and I don't want to do any hacks (however hack is defined though...).
Actually, all I want to do is create a level/game that automatically starts the game, has a few bots playing in the background, doesn't display any messages (like kill message), has no score board and shows a menu or a video sequence upon starup. Also, no player should in any way be able to participate. ^^
Quite a few requirements I'd say.
Oh, and I don't want to do any hacks (however hack is defined though...).
http://www.xkcd.com/
A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language.
A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language.
Re: Gametype and XML parameters
bots in the background can be defined in a level file itself and a gametype which starts itself but doesn't allow humans to play is possible with only a few lines of code.
Fabian 'x3n' Landau, Orxonox developer
Re: Gametype and XML parameters
It's rather the rest that concerns me ^^
http://www.xkcd.com/
A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language.
A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language.
Re: Gametype and XML parameters
I think I can resolve my issues the same way we handle the Gametype for a normal level: configuration in from the gui and then this information somehow gets to the gametype. Question is just how..
http://www.xkcd.com/
A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language.
A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language.
Re: Gametype and XML parameters
which rest?1337 wrote:It's rather the rest that concerns me ^^
opening a menu? i guess thats 1 line in the constructor of the gametype, isn't it?
no messages? there aren't any in the default gametype
no scoreboard? well thats currently not possible since the scoreboard is only a hack, but we don't want a scoreboard in the singleplayer campaign either, so it's a separate problem
Fabian 'x3n' Landau, Orxonox developer
Re: Gametype and XML parameters
actually the default Gametype does send messages. Maybe nothing listens, not sure about that.
http://www.xkcd.com/
A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language.
A webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language.
Re: Gametype and XML parameters
no, there are no messages.
btw, seemingly you can also deactivate the scoreboard by using another template (= no template)
btw, seemingly you can also deactivate the scoreboard by using another template (= no template)
Fabian 'x3n' Landau, Orxonox developer
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